New reply and clarification to reviewer nP6r
Thank you for considering our response and for your valuable feedback. We appreciate the opportunity to further address the concerns raised.
`Q1: "It becomes less crucial as the data scale increases" is not convincing. VE can be trained easily with noisy large-scale web data; while generative VLM does require higher quality data, which makes it less easy to scale the VLM training data. I.e., "This indicates that eliminating the vision encoder for a fully encoder-free VLM is practical" might not be true.`
**(1) In the context of the rebuttal, "*it* becomes less crucial ..." and "eliminating the *vision encoder* for a ..." refer specifically to the distillation/supervision of the vision encoder, not the vision encoder used in encoder-based VLMs.** In Figure 1 of the rebuttal PDF, vision encoder distillation does help early convergence with a moderate data scale, but its importance diminishes with larger data sets (beyond 24M in our experiments). This suggests that removing the vision encoder supervision in EVE is feasible with extensive pre-training data.
**(2) Removing the vision encoder in encoder-based VLMs proves practical even with noisy large-scale data.** Only with 1B mixture data (including large noisy WebLI, CC3M-35L, and etc), Paligemma's encoder-free model nearly matches the encoder-based one (with 40B data for separate SigLIP) across about 13 of 37 datasets (e.g., ChartQA, GQA, RefCOCO/+/g, RSVQA, etc.). The scaling trend reflects the potential for further bridging their performance gap, indicating that a pre-trained vision encoder may not be essential and that using noisy data (especially interleave data [a]) to train generative VLMs is acceptable.
**(3) We agree that high-quality data is crucial for VLMs compared to noisy data. However, scaling up high-quality data is not as difficult as it might appear.** For example, with LLaVA1.5-13B via the SGLang package, we can caption about 4-5M images in one day using two A100 (40G) nodes. With more devices, the process becomes even faster. Additionally, there are many open-source re-captioning data sources (e.g., CapFusion [b], Recap-Datacomp-1B [c]) and caption engines (e.g., ShareGPT4v [d], DenseFusion [e]) available for constructing pre-training data. Besides, in the text-to-image generation field, building large high-quality datasets is commonly developed in the research and industry. Thus, we do not view this as a significant bottleneck in real-world scenarios.
[a] VILA: On Pre-training for Visual Language Models. CVPR2024
[b] CapsFusion: Rethinking Image-Text Data at Scale. CVPR2024
[c] What If We Recaption Billions of Web Images with LLaMA-3? arXiv 2406.08478
[d] ShareGPT4V: Improving Large Multi-Modal Models with Better Captions. ECCV2024
[e] DenseFusion-1M: Merging Vision Experts for Comprehensive Multimodal Perception. arXiv 2407.08303
`Q2: Elaborate "Scaling performance of EVE with or without vision encoder supervision"`
For fairness, we retain the Patch Embedding Layer (PEL) and remove the Patch Aligning Layer (PAL) (i.e., VE supervision) at all stages, keeping other variables unchanged.
- Stage 1: We train both PEL and PAL for EVE-7B and EVE-7B-HD, and only PEL for versions without VE supervision, using 16M out of 33M pretraining data at the largest 672-pixel resolution.
- Stage 2: We unfreeze all modules for these versions, utilizing all 33M pretraining data at the largest 672-pixel resolution.
- Stage 3: We train the full model for EVE-7B (w/ and w/o VE supervision) using LLaVA-mix-665K, and for EVE-7B-HD (w/ and w/o VE supervision) using extra 1.2M SFT data at a 1344-pixel resolution.
`Q3: What is learned in this stage when "without vision encoder supervision"?`
Through text supervision, EVE aims to learn visual perception and establish an initial vision-language connection. This provides a better starting point for subsequent large-scale pretraining and avoiding model collapse.
`Q4: Have you tried maintaining language ability in stage 2 or 3?`
Yes, we conducted experiments using our multimodal data and text-only FineWeb data in 7:3, 5:5, and 3:7 ratios.
- We used 5M mixed data for Stages 1 and 2, followed by LLaVA-mix-665K for Stage 3, all with a 1344-pixel image resolution, and removed vision encoder supervision throughout all stages.
- We observed that a higher proportion of language-only data preserved better language capability (SQA scores improved from 63.5 to 64.7 to 65.2), but led to a slower increase in multimodal capability (GQA scores decreased from 58.3 to 57.4 to 55.2).
- We suggest a 5:5 ratio for pre-training with high-resolution images. While we haven’t tested a 672-pixel resolution, a 7:3 (multimodal:text-only samples) ratio might be a good choice for balancing image-text token ratios, which is a better consideration factor.
We respectfully hope that these explanations can convince you to potentially enhance your evaluation score. We are available to address any additional questions you may have.